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Fitness questions and answers for July 3

Form & Fitness Q & A

Got a question about fitness, training, recovery from injury or a related subject? Drop us a line at fitness@cyclingnews.com. Please include as much information about yourself as possible, including your age, sex, and type of racing or riding. Due to the volume of questions we receive, we regret that we are unable to answer them all.

Carrie Cheadle, MA (www.carriecheadle.com) is a Sports Psychology consultant who has dedicated her career to helping athletes of all ages and abilities perform to their potential. Carrie specialises in working with cyclists, in disciplines ranging from track racing to mountain biking. She holds a bachelors degree in Psychology from Sonoma State University as well as a masters degree in Sport Psychology from John F. Kennedy University.

Dave Palese (www.davepalese.com) is a USA Cycling licensed coach and masters' class road racer with 16 years' race experience. He coaches racers and riders of all abilities from his home in southern Maine, USA, where he lives with his wife Sheryl, daughter Molly, and two cats, Miranda and Mu-Mu.

Kelby Bethards, MD received a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering from Iowa State University (1994) before obtaining an M.D. from the University of Iowa College of Medicine in 2000. Has been a racing cyclist 'on and off' for 20 years, and when time allows, he races Cat 3 and 35+. He is a team physician for two local Ft Collins, CO, teams, and currently works Family Practice in multiple settings: rural, urgent care, inpatient and the like.

Fiona Lockhart (www.trainright.com) is a USA Cycling Expert Coach, and holds certifications from USA Weightlifting (Sports Performance Coach), the National Strength and Conditioning Association (Certified Strength and Conditioning Coach), and the National Academy for Sports Nutrition (Primary Sports Nutritionist). She is the Sports Science Editor for Carmichael Training Systems, and has been working in the strength and conditioning and endurance sports fields for over 10 years; she's also a competitive mountain biker.

Eddie Monnier (www.velo-fit.com) is a USA Cycling certified Elite Coach and a Category II racer. He holds undergraduate degrees in anthropology (with departmental honors) and philosophy from Emory University and an MBA from The Wharton School of Business.

Eddie is a proponent of training with power. He coaches cyclists (track, road and mountain bike) of all abilities and with wide ranging goals (with and without power meters). He uses internet tools to coach riders from any geography.

David Fleckenstein, MPT (www.physiopt.com) is a physical therapist practicing in Boise, ID. His clients have included World and U.S. champions, Olympic athletes and numerous professional athletes. He received his B.S. in Biology/Genetics from Penn State and his Master's degree in Physical Therapy from Emory University. He specializes in manual medicine treatment and specific retraining of spine and joint stabilization musculature. He is a former Cat I road racer and Expert mountain biker.

Since 1986 Steve Hogg (www.cyclefitcentre.com) has owned and operated Pedal Pushers, a cycle shop specialising in rider positioning and custom bicycles. In that time he has positioned riders from all cycling disciplines and of all levels of ability with every concievable cycling problem.They include World and National champions at one end of the performance spectrum to amputees and people with disabilities at the other end.

Current riders that Steve has positioned include Davitamon-Lotto's Nick Gates, Discovery's Hayden Roulston, National Road Series champion, Jessica Ridder and National and State Time Trial champion, Peter Milostic.

Pamela Hinton has a bachelor's degree in Molecular Biology and a doctoral degree in Nutritional Sciences, both from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She did postdoctoral training at Cornell University and is now an assistant professor of Nutritional Sciences at the University of Missouri-Columbia where she studies the effects of iron deficiency on adaptations to endurance training and the consequences of exercise-associated changes in menstrual function on bone health.

Pam was an All-American in track while at the UW. She started cycling competitively in 2003 and is the defending Missouri State Road Champion. Pam writes a nutrition column for Giana Roberge's Team Speed Queen Newsletter.

Dario Fredrick (www.wholeathlete.com) is an exercise physiologist and head coach for Whole Athlete™. He is a former category 1 & semi-pro MTB racer. Dario holds a masters degree in exercise science and a bachelors in sport psychology.

Scott Saifer (www.wenzelcoaching.com) has a Masters Degree in exercise physiology and sports psychology and has personally coached over 300 athletes of all levels in his 10 years of coaching with Wenzel Coaching.

Kendra Wenzel (www.wenzelcoaching.com) is a head coach with Wenzel Coaching with 17 years of racing and coaching experience and is coauthor of the book Bike Racing 101.

Steve Owens (www.coloradopremiertraining.com) is a USA Cycling certified coach, exercise physiologist and owner of Colorado Premier Training. Steve has worked with both the United States Olympic Committee and Guatemalan Olympic Committee as an Exercise Physiologist. He holds a B.S. in Exercise & Sports Science and currently works with multiple national champions, professionals and World Cup level cyclists.

Through his highly customized online training format, Steve and his handpicked team of coaches at Colorado Premier Training work with cyclists and multisport athletes around the world.

Brett Aitken (www.cycle2max.com) is a Sydney Olympic gold medalist. Born in Adelaide, Australia in 1971, Brett got into cycling through the cult sport of cycle speedway before crossing over into road and track racing. Since winning Olympic gold in the Madison with Scott McGrory, Brett has been working on his coaching business and his www.cycle2max.com website.

Richard Stern (www.cyclecoach.com) is Head Coach of Richard Stern Training, a Level 3 Coach with the Association of British Cycling Coaches, a Sports Scientist, and a writer. He has been professionally coaching cyclists and triathletes since 1998 at all levels from professional to recreational. He is a leading expert in coaching with power output and all power meters. Richard has been a competitive cyclist for 20 years

Andy Bloomer (www.cyclecoach.com) is an Associate Coach and sport scientist with Richard Stern Training. He is a member of the Association of British Cycling Coaches (ABCC) and a member of the British Association of Sport and Exercise Sciences (BASES). In his role as Exercise Physiologist at Staffordshire University Sports Performance Centre, he has conducted physiological testing and offered training and coaching advice to athletes from all sports for the past 4 years. Andy has been a competitive cyclist for many years.

Michael Smartt (www.cyclecoach.com) is an Associate Coach with Richard Stern Training. He holds a Masters degree in exercise physiology and is USA Cycling Expert Coach. Michael has been a competitive cyclist for over 10 years and has experience coaching road and off-road cyclists, triathletes and Paralympians.

Kim Morrow (www.elitefitcoach.com) has competed as a Professional Cyclist and Triathlete, is a certified USA Cycling Elite Coach, a 4-time U.S. Masters National Road Race Champion, and a Fitness Professional.

Her coaching group, eliteFITcoach, is based out of the Southeastern United States, although they coach athletes across North America. Kim also owns MyEnduranceCoach.com, a resource for cyclists, multisport athletes & endurance coaches around the globe, specializing in helping cycling and multisport athletes find a coach.

Advice presented in Cyclingnews' fitness pages is provided for educational purposes only and is not intended to be specific advice for individual athletes. If you follow the educational information found on Cyclingnews, you do so at your own risk. You should consult with your physician before beginning any exercise program.

Training for young cyclists
Climbing speed
Making training harder
Pedal position vs. spin rate
ACL Tear
Best women's saddles
Different leg sizes
Elbow pain
"Crunching" knees
Top end speed
Hypertension
Inside leg/ knee pain
Quad cramps
Bike fit isssues

Training for young cyclists

Hi, I am a 15 year old cyclist and I am trying to find out how hard I should train at my level. I live in Southeastern North Carolina and where there are no hills or mountains to train on and few events to enter into.What would you recommend?

Troy Allen, North Carolina

Scott Saifer replies:

How much and how hard you, or any other cyclist older or younger, should train depends on at least:

Climbing speed

I'm a 22 Male Cat 4 racer 5'9 160lb. I just picked up racing this year and I'm now upgrading to Cat 4. I want to pick up my climbing speed by about 1-2mph on a 3.5mile 8% climb. I'm currently climbing this hill in 20 minutes at TT threshold (Heartrate) I'd like to climb it in about 18 but I can't seem to get any faster on it. What would be the best route to achieving this goal, so that I can maintain the pace with racing?

Grady Reel

Scott Saifer replies:

Interestingly, you are 10% heavier than the average successful professional rider your height and you are asking for a 10% increase in speed, so the obvious answer to your question is that you need to lose about 15 pounds to transform your body into a bike-racer body. The weight range for successful pro at 5'9" is roughly 135-155 pounds, with the climbers at the low and and the TT/sprint guys at the higher end. Note that there is a low end of the range as well as a high end. If you get too light, you lose power and climbing suffers. If you are too heavy, you may have power but your power-to-weight ratio is not compatible with fast climbing.

Making training harder

I am recreational cyclist who goes on tours with a mountain bike. I normally train by commuting to school (around 10km each way) and other places (up to 30km) during weekdays. During weekends, I go for long rides of around 80 to 150km.

For my weekday commutes and weekend rides, Is it true that it's better if I train using knobby tires and go on the actual tour with slick tires, since I get a harder workout on each ride? As for my weekend long rides, assuming effort spent is about the same, is there any significant difference between a shorter ride (say 90km) on knobby tires and a longer ride (say 100km) on slick tires?

Your advice is much appreciated.

Leung Weiwen
Singapore

Scott Saifer replies:

No, it is not better to train on knobbies. If you want a "harder workout", just go faster on the slicks. The only time I recommend deliberately increasing the rolling resistance of a bike is if you are training outdoors on very cold days. In that case working harder while going slower can be advantageous. The optimal intensity for your training is a whole other question.

Pedal position vs. spin rate

I recently tried changing my pedal position from the traditional 'ball of the foot right above the axel of the pedal' to maybe 7 or 8 mm in front of the axel. I noticed less muscular stress when climbing seated (was able to sustain high outputs without feeling tired muscles as much). However, it has severely capped my pedalling speed. During high output, I am accustomed to pedal rates around 105 rpm (sometimes above 110). Now, it feels very awkward when I get over 95 rpm. I'd like to get my high pedal rate back. Should I just spend some time re-training my spin? Or is it something about my pedal position? It's worth noting that my pedals do feel a bit too far forward, and my heels have a tendancy to rise (which they didn't before I moved my cleats). I also moved my seat forward to prevent me from overextending my legs due to the new pedal position.

Noah Bronstein

Steve Hogg replies:

Move your seat back to whatever setback it was before and drop your seat 3mm from your previous height. This should be enough to accommodate the 7 - 8mm that you have moved the cleats back. Then go for a hill ride as see if you have power and fluency through the bottom of the pedal stroke. By that I mean that you should not feel any sense of over reaching. If you do, drop the seat another couple of mm. Try this for a couple of weeks, say 3 - 4 rides a week.

ACL Tear

Not really a question here, just a note.

On December 27th of this past winter, I tore my ACL (100%) in a soccer game. There was minor cartiledge damage and a minor sprain to my MCL. I got on the indoor trainer 3 days later to test it out. Needless to say, there was limited range of motion, but I could pedal at about 20 rpms and a 49 watt normalized power for 20 minutes. I gradually built up from that, even after the MRI and follow-up suggested surgery. At the second opinion I got a month after the injury (from a trusted ortho), I was told that it would not be a problem to wait until after the cycling season for surgery. This was partly because the MCL and cartiledge had healed and my knee was doing extremely well. I was back on the bike and up to my full training, sans full-on sprinting. Now, I have gone back and seen the ortho, and he is absolutely amazed. My legs strength, from years of soccer and cycling, is compensating for the lack of an ACL to the point that he can tell no discernable difference between my two knees. This is to the point that he says I don't need surgery, period. I have no problems or pain other than occasional stiffness and no swelling after workouts. I have also, so far, had a successful season with several top-10 finishes and have just won my state's elite criterium championship.

Basically, what I'm saying here, is that a knee injury is not going to throw off season plans. Cycling is about the best thing a person can do for their knees, and is generally the first step to recovery anyway. Just something to reference when you give advice on injuries.

Ben Faulk

Kelby Bethards replies:

You are correct about the bike being great for the knee. You are also very fortunate that your joint structure and musculature allows you to rehab and function well without an ACL.

Dave Fleckenstein replies:

I like the approach that your second surgeon is taking. In the short run it is not essential for the ACL to be repaired, particularly when performing a non-impact sport such as cycling. In the long run, however, my opinion is that having it repaired is the right thing. Now, before our readers bombard us with letters saying how they have done well without their ACLs, I would say that certainly some function well if they are ACL deficient, particularly if they do not participate in any high impact or lateral activities. But, in the long run, once the ACL is gone one of the primary restraints to anterior shear of the tibia is lost. This excessive motion is absorbed over time by the meniscus, which is not ideal and can lead to accelerated degenerative changes at the knee.

Best women's saddles

I have read the articles related to women's specific bike fit by Steve Hogg on the www.cyclefitcentre.com web site and any emails related to fit on the cyclingnews fitness Q&A section. Steve has a list of recommended women's saddles in his "More Sensitive Issues" article dated 2000. I would love to see an updated list of saddles that he recommends for women and am sure there are many other women who would benefit from this advice. I desperately need a new saddle, but getting one that is comfortable is such an ordeal.

Thanks for any help that you can provide.

Robin Crumpton

Steve Hogg replies:

Here is your list but I will qualify it by saying that a lot of 'seat' problems are not caused by the seat but by it's fore and aft position on the bike and how that forces a womens weight to be supported. Additionally, there is no one seat that suits everyone and even with a good position, some experimentation with seat types is sometimes necessary.

Different leg sizes

I am a 21 year old male and I am currently into bike racing as well as triathlons. I think that I have seen this question asked before on your website but I can't seem to find it when I search. My right side of my body is the more dominant side and I have read that usually your non-dominant side will be a little bigger due to it not being as well trained so therefore it has to work harder. But in my case, the size difference in my right leg is about 1 inch to 1 ½ inches smaller than my left. Is this size difference normal or am I doing something incorrectly on the bike or in my workouts? Any suggestions or feedback would be helpful. Thanks.

Joshua McKean

Steve Hogg replies:

Am I safe to assume that when you say ":my right leg is about 1 inch to 1 ½ inches smaller than my left." that you are talking upper or lower leg circumference and not leg length?

Joshua replied:

Sorry for not specifying on whether it was leg length or circumference but yes, it is circumference. When I do sprints on my bike, am running on a track for interval work, or ride down a ramp on a time trial, I always start with my left leg because I can get more power for my first stroke or first step. Even when I play basketball I always jump off of my left leg when getting a rebound or trying to do a lay-up. Do you think that over the years of doing this on the same leg over and over could cause such a dramatic size difference between the two legs?

Steve Hogg replies:

I may be wrong in this. We can self protect an injury to the point where we evolve patterns of motion that don't load that area or injury. These patterns of motion can often outlast the injury and be semi permanent and hard to break out of. I would be seeing some sort of health professional with a good grounding in neuroanatomy and an understanding of how these things happen and how they are broken down and replaced with more symmetrical use patterns.

Elbow pain

I am a 50 year old, female who just purchased a Terry Madeline road bike. I'm in the test driving period and have made several trips to the bike shop for adjustments. One of the first adjustments made was to slide the seat forward a bit so that I didn't feel like I was hyper extended with no bend in my arms. This helped me relax my shoulder and took the kink out of my back but as soon as I did that my elbows began to ache. Another adjustment we made was to add one more spacer to the handbars, thinking that perhaps that would make take some of the pressure off my arms and reduce the pain. I like riding in a more upright position.

I've tried to get out on the bike a much as possible since I only have a two week window to test drive it before sending it back if I choose not to keep it. Today, I did a 10 - 15 mile ride and even with cycling gloves (which on shorter rides seems to help with the pain) my elbow ached during and long after the ride.

Do you have any suggestions? Aside from the aching elbows it's a great to be out on the bicycle again and nothing else seems to be a problem. It rides like a dream but the elbow pain is a nightmare.

Nancy Alemany
Texas, USA

Steve Hogg replies:

When the seat was moved forward, the weight of your upper body moved with it. That weight has to be supported somehow and it is the job of the arms to do that. It is the bearing of two much weight on your arms that is the likely culprit. The other possible but less likely happening is that the reach to the bars is no too short as well as the seat being too far forward and your arms are working hard to keep you upper body supported and stable.

"Crunching" knees

I have been a runner for about 7 years. I used to run marathons and run 10-15 at least five days a week. For the past 5-6 months, whenever I bend down or do squats, I can hear this "crunching" noise in my knees which is accompanied by pain. I have stopped running and do yoga and work out at the gym. Do I need to worry about this "crunching" noise in my knees and if so, is there anything I can do to eliminate and/or stop this from getting worse. I am concerned about it and it does cause me pain, especially when I first get out of bed in the morning. I have always been very physically active. Any suggestions would be very helpful. Thank you.

Susan Kelley

Scott Saifer replies:

You don't need to worry about the crunching noise necessarily, but you should worry about the pain. Both have many possible causes, some of which are benign and will go away with a little rest, and others which could get gradually or rapidly worse without some real medical attention. After 5-6 months of noise and pain, you can conclude that the problem is not going to go away by itself so it's time to see the doctor (sorry).

Top end speed

I'm a mid 40s masters racer in the Pacific Northwest. At 5'7" and 135 lbs, I hold my own in road races with longer climbs but what I really lack is a decent top end. Once the spring road race season is over in early June I'm suffering in the crits. I stay with the pack usually without too much trouble, but when it's time to come around or make a break forget it. Because of my general endurance I can post some decent times in longer TTs but fare much worse on a windy or short TT course. I'm looking for suggestions on developing more power (and hopefully something that will work for a guy busy chasing three kids under the age of 6). Thx.

Brad Laesch
Seattle, WA USA

Ric Stern replies:

It sounds most likely that you need to increase your sustainable power output. Currently, it sounds like your absolute power isn't that high but that your power to mass ratio is good. This would allow you to climb well, but could potentially see you disadvantaged when mass is of less importance (although mass is of importance) such as in a short time trial or a criterium.

Hypertension

I am a 47 year old athlete who recently underwent a stress-test (Bruce protocol). My physician wanted a baseline stress-test due to my age and a complaint of sharp chest pain during some climbing. My beginning heart rate was 48 bpm and my blood pressure was 135/85 at the start of the test. The stress test was normal except for an increase in blood pressure that went as high as 250/122 when I reached my predicted heart rate of 147 bpm. My heart rate went down to the mid forties within two minutes of the conclusion of the test but my blood pressure remained elevated for sometime. I do have a history of mild hypertension (usually 130/78-80mmHg). Now that I have a graphic illustration of what happens when I work out I am willing to go on anti-hypertensive to help lower my blood pressure to the recommended 120/70. My concerns are as follows: Can the medications effect my performance by limiting my heart rate? Will the medications effect my electrolyte balance since I train in the desert? Do athletes have a tendency towards a higher blood pressure due to their bradycardia? Finally, what medications do you recommend in athletes, ace inhibitors, beta blockers or diuretics?

Kurt Luedtke
Tucson, Arizona

Kelby Bethards replies:

You have a few good questions. Here are the answers. Yes, possibly, no, diuretics or ACE.

Inside leg/ knee pain

I am a 48 yr old male, recreational cyclist, riding about 100 or so miles a week. Recently purchased a new bike, shoes and pedals. On a recent ride a friend noticed my right leg, rather than tracking up and down, was essentially "wobbling", with the right knee moving in and out towards the center of the bike as the foot travels down.

I have been experiencing pain and cramping on the inside of my quads, ( I think in the adductors and Gracilis, maybe sartorius??), and I had cramps there even before the new bike, seems as if I use the inside much more than any other part of my leg for some reason. I also have pain in the inside right beside the knee, nothing locking up, but sharp pain there.

Seat height appears about right I don't seem to be rocking at the hips.

Any idea what might be causing this?

Sid Kitchings

Steve Hogg replies:

When you say "I have been experiencing pain and cramping on the inside of my quads"; is this like the other stuff you mention, only apparent on the right side or are both sides affected?

Sid responded:

Cramping on both sides, more tightness and pain on the right though some on left, just seem strange that those muscles are bothering me vs. quad or hamstrings?

Steve Hogg replies:

How far from the top tube are your knees at the top and bottom of the pedal stroke?

Quad cramps

Like most who refer to your site, thanks for all the good advice and your patience in trying to solve problems. I am a 49yo male cyclist, 6', 182#. I have been riding off and on since about 1980. I ride with a local club in Honolulu and average 100-125 miles per week of club rides.

Pertinent Facts: I ride a 58cm bike, with a 57cm top tube. I wear Sidi Genius 4 shoes with the red cleats (size 45.5) and use Look CX6 pedals selected to 9 degrees of float. Seated on a table with my legs hanging down my left foot is pretty straight but my right foot angles out (toes out). My cleats are set up as you have described on the site.

Issue: On rides longer than 30 miles, my right quadricep cramps, preventing me from continuing until I take a break and stretch. Even then, at a much reduced level of effort. The cramping extends from the upper inside of my right thigh, past the quad to the knee. It seems that my right leg works much harder than my left. As you might expect, it is exacerbated by big ring riding and climbing. I can't really define when I first noticed the problem. Some other facts. When pedaling, my right quad is closer to the top tube than my left. Attempts at adjusting the right pedal Q factor out (away from the bike) have not corrected the issue. The sensation I have is that I am not able to sit square on the saddle and that my left foot is lower than my right. In addition, my sense is that the right leg is always under a load, and never feels relaxed like the left.

In reading your columns, you have suggested to others that the issue might be a leg length discrepancy. I have never had this problem. I am, however, considering purchasing some Lemond Lewedges and placing one under my left cleat. Do you think this a wise action?

Lee Hankins
Honolulu, HI

Steve Hogg replies:

Get the Lemond wedges but hold fire for the moment. As a diagnostic method, drop your seat 10mm and tell me what happens. Does this make the right side problems better or worse?

Bike fit isssues

I am 28 years old and am a typical season bike rider and do most of my biking during the wormer months. I cycle about 3 times a week but would like to do more. In the winter I mostly cross country ski. I haven't been cycling that long. About four years ago I started competing in some sprint distance triathlons at a beginner's level. I hade been cycling a little mountain bike the year before that but mostly as rehabilitation because I was diagnosed with patella tendonitis the year before that (about 6 years ago now, before this I never biked).

Last year I did not do that much cycling because I was traveling a lot but started up again this year.

Symptoms I have had for the past few years.

Pain around the Patella in my right knee during and after longer (1:30-2:00 hours and more) bike rides. I get this more or less every time I go over 2:00 hours, it helps a little bit if I stretch a lot before the bike ride and do a good worm up.

Pain on the outside of my right knee. Use to get this a lot more before but not so much anymore. I will still get it if I don't do a lot stretching of the IT band right before a bike ride, or if I have not done any stretching for a few days.

New Symptoms for this year:

Irritating feeling in my left knee, feels like the patella isn't tracking correctly. It is not as bad if I do a lot of aggressive quad stretching right before the bike ride. It is also not as bad with, but still not great, with the new LOOK pedals that I recently put on my road bike where my feet are more angled out on the pedals.

I can get bad hip pain, mostly in right hip, after some of my longer bike rides but never during the ride itself. If I get hip pain it usually comes a little wile after I have finished riding and lasts anywhere from a few hours to a few days. I don't always get this, maybe every second or third week depending on how much riding I have done. I have also noticed that if I go to a chiropractor my hip is better for a week or so.

Lower back pain during, but mostly after, longer bike rides.

Also pretty often both my knees feel a bit sore and get a bit worm in the evenings after a bike ride that I have had previously that day.

Eddie Hult, USA

Steve Hogg replies:

It sounds like you are not sitting squarely on the seat. Can you verify this?

Eddie responded:

I jumped on the trainer with my road bike and had my girlfriend observe me for a wile.

She looked at me for a few minutes and said that if anything is going on my right hip is dropping. She said if it is dropping it is very little, so little that she is not sure it is actually dropping.

She is quite sure however that no side is twisting forward.

(I did the same with my MTB and she saw no difference)

I have the Specialized S-Works Road shoe size 46 EU, 13 USA. These are my new shoes (about 3-4 weeks old, before I used my MTB shoes which are Specialized mountain bike shoe (don't know what they are called) size 46 and 12 USA (for some reason the USA size differ between the two??))

I am now using Look Keo Carbon pedals (use to have the same as on my MTB before I got new shoes, Shimano SPD)

My seat is a SelleRoyal Wing (came with the bike, looks like a regular road bike seat).

I am pretty flexible, I do a lot of stretching, I can touch my hands on the floor with my legs strait without bigger problems. However my thighs are very heavy to stretch, that is, I have to use a lot of strength to stretch them, it takes a lot of energy. The only thing that may not be as flexible as it should be is my ankles and calf muscles, they are a bit tight.

No bigger difference between left and right flexibility, if any my left thigh is bit tighter and perhaps my left glut, but not much if any.

I notice no difference at all in my flexibility between my cycling and skiing season or left vs right.

Steve Hogg replies:

Given everything you have told me, that you are flexible and reasonably square on the bike, there are a number of things that come too mind:

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